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I'm having a hard time finding an answer to my problem. I have a long distance between my water heater and my shower. I keep reading that a recirculation pump is the way to go, but I don't like the idea of my water heater running all the time or warm water being introduced to my cold water line.

My thought is I get a point of use tankless water heater and connect the inlet to the HOT water feed and the outlet to the HOT water side of the shower valve with the thought that once the HOT water reaches the POU Tankless Water heater, it will shut off and the main house water heater will continue from there. The answer I can't find is "will the point of use tankless heater stop heating once the water coming into it is already at the right temperature? Thanks

Greg C
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3 Answers3

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Edit: there is a hack where it can work, but it requires convenient piping layout and limited flow.

The general problem with tankless is the faster the flow, the more electricity you need. You need a LOT of electricity. There is no halfway - if you do not have enough electricity, then you generally get tepid water. On some, flow continues anyway, and you get tepid water. This is a very miserable experience. On others, the heater restricts flow, but you're still mixing in cold water, so the mix goes tepid also. Thermostatic mixing valves can't add more hot if it just isn't there.

Heating water takes a tremendous amount of energy. My rule of thumb is 10 kW (40 amps) per GPM to lift 40-50F outside water (hold that thought) to comfortable temp. A "California" shower head is 1.5 GPM and a regular one is 2.5 GPM, so we're talking 60-100 amps of power.

The British have a thing called an "electric shower". These are 8500, 9500 or 10,500 watts and sit right at the showerhead (often in the shower stall!) and are tankless real-time water heaters. On some of them too, the electric shower IS able to curtail flow so they don't go tepid, they reduce stream.

All that to say, your plan doesn't work because it only has two possible states, "fail" or "redundant and wasteful".

  • If the tankless is too small for the flow, the shower is unusable and you must wait for hot water anyway.
  • If tankless heater is large enough for the flow, you don't need the tanked heater AT ALL. So why is it even connected to the tanked heater? That only results in a long pipe full of hot water being abandoned every shower. Just plumb the tankless off the local cold water line and done.

The hack, though

There is only one "hack" that I can see working here. The pipe from your water heater to the shower - is it inside the building's insulation envelope? Often done in the snowbelt to avoid pipe freeze. If it is, then the resting water in that pipe is at 70°F not 45°F, and you'll need somewhat less tankless heat to get it to usable temperature e.g. 105F in a shower. You are going 70-105F (+35F) instead of 45-105F (+70F) so you need half the heat or 5 kW per GPM. That combined with flow restrictions could get you within reach of an achievable tankless.

And if you can make that hack work, you still don't need the tanked heater connection. The logic of the tanked heater is that after the 70F water resting in the pipes is used up, you must take from the tanked heater otherwise you'll be taking 45F cold water from the street. No, you don't need to do that! You can use a Waste Water Heat Recovery System which is a fancy name for two concentric pipes. The drain water goes through the straight inner pipe (for ease of snaking) and transfers its heat to the water in the outer pipe, which feeds the tankless heater, raising its inlet temperature well above room temp. So again there is no need to feed a tankless from a tanked heater.

Harper - Reinstate Monica
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Probably the reason you can't find the answer is because it depends on the point of use tankless water heater. There are some smaller 120 Volt units, 3600 Watts, that do not have thermostatic control. They just turn on and heat the water as long as the water is flowing. They display the water temperature only. The larger units, 240 Volt, 5.5 KW, will usually have a thermostat that will turn off the unit when the water reaches the set temperature. You'd have to make sure that your main water heater water temperature is hotter than the point of use one or the point of use one would not turn off. Both these units call for being hard wired and need a larger circuit than would normally be installed in a bathroom.

JACK
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Most point-of-use water heaters are designed for exactly this use case, and do have thermostats that turn off when the incoming water is already hot enough. This does require setting the point-of-use thermostat slightly lower than the main tank thermostat.

Regarding tankless vs. small tank:

  • Tankless:

    • Fits in small space
    • Requires high current electrical circuit
    • Water temperature depends on flow and heater power. This can be calculated. For a typical shower you'd need to heat water by 20°C at 7 liter/minute flow, which needs 10 kW of electrical power. If incoming water is below room temperature (pipes on outer walls), you need even more power.
    • Takes a few seconds to heat up
  • Small tank:

    • Takes more space
    • Gives hot water immediately
    • Constantly uses a small amount of electricity
    • Normal 15 A circuit is enough
    • Tank must be sized for the time it takes to get hot water from main tank. If it currently takes 30 seconds and the flow rate is 7 liter/minute, you need at least 3.5 liter tank.
    • Water temperature will vary a lot when the cold water from pipe mixes with the tank contents. A thermostat valve on the shower is needed.
jpa
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